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ChromaTalk Archives: September 2012

Re: two cps kits available now

Go to first message in thread, August 2012

James Coplin [16330036]

I haven’t received this yet, please advise.

another swedish chroma located

Jesper Ödemark [21010135]

Hi list!

21020006 is found, tucked away in a storage room (in Stockholm I think). I spoke to a guy renting a room at the owner's place. This is what he just wrote (translated from swedish):

"He bought it new. It has midi and a new PSU which apparently isn't as messy as the old."

Now I'll try to convince him to check the battery so it won't die a painful death. It's been standing on one side for quite a while...

I'll update if I hear more! :D

Jesper Ödemark [21010135]

Edit: He doesn't want his name in the registry, but it currently resides in Gothenburg. :)

The entry for this instrument was updated after the owner got in touch.

Chroma on eBay

Chris Ryan [21030691]

Item #251151826814, USD$4,500.00, ends September 23. From the description: "Sold as-is for repair. The synthsizer powers on and all led's light up. The alpha numeric display does not light up. It does not produce any sound (most likely it will need a replacement power supply). The cosmetic condition is good, there are scratches the the black paint and wood sides. All parts and components are intact, including memory modification. This Rhodes Chroma comes from the legendary Cherokee Studios in Hollywood, CA."

251151826814a

Looks like it has the Syntech memory expander installed:

251151826814b

I've asked the seller for the serial number.

Paul DeRocco [21030230]

It's nice to see prices for my old design going up, but he's dreaming if he expects $4500 for a broken unit.

CPS status

Chris Borman [21030194+]

There are two folks interested in getting a CPS kit for their Chroma. I will have 2 extra kits ready to go next week if any other takers.

Re: What do people actually like about the Chroma?

Go to first message in thread, July 2012

Stephan Vladimir Bugaj [21030860]

I found Paul DeRocco's [21030230] post interesting, so I am responding.

I am in the process of having a Chroma I was initially going to sell but then decided to keep repaired and upgraded. Why did I keep it and spend money on it rather than just getting whatever I could and getting out? Because in looking into it, I was reminded of why I bought the Chroma in the first place, like 10+ years ago: the great sound.

As for the sound, I like it.

  1. Eight voices is great for me, as I'm not the sort of person who plays any glissandos across the keyboard, and if I do, I have other keyboards than can do it. But a set of eight analog oscillators and filters? I like that.
  2. I'm a studio guy, not a live performer. I can split to stereo and add reverb in the mix.
  3. It does stink about the tuning issues, but so long as auto tune gets working again, I'll live at least for a while.
  4. Fixed pitch detune sounds unnatural, but it sounds like a Chroma. It's character. If I could have both, though, even better.
  5. The voice allocation issue mentioned is for performers, I can layer sounds in the studio so it doesn't bug me.
  6. Yes, being able to modulate resonance would rock.
  7. Same thing with tone controls as program params.
  8. More and better modulation is always good.
  9. Slow envelopes is a character thing for me. I have many other synths, so I consider a number of deficiencies to be character and limitations to work within that make me a more creative synthesist.
  10. Same with the waveshapes issue.

And the other issues:

  1. USB Midi would be nice and all, but the CC+ board feature set doesn't look so bad.
  2. Adding an external flash (or hard disk) interface to replace the cassette would be rad, but sysex dumps aren't the end of the world.
  3. Connectivity via ethernet is a dream feature. Hardly any hardware synths have that even now.
  4. I can timestamp my files on a computer host.
  5. Yes, a better display would be great.
  6. Yes, it is way too heavy. I used to love heavy synths because it proved they were substantial, but now that I'm older it just pisses me off whenever I have to take one out of the rack for servicing.

Ease of use is not to be trivialized in an era of supremely awesome and easy to use tools.

I previously set aside and ignored my Chroma for years because programming it was too tedious compared to "tons of awesome knobs" on my old synths or "I just commune directly with the waveforms" in softsynths (I'm a computer programmer by trade, so softsynths are a natural fit). Once I got tired of the factory patches, I was done.

But I'm hoping once the CC+ is installed, and I can use TouchOSC to program it with ease, and get patches in and out of it via sysex dumps to some editor/librarian (if there's one that doesn't suck for Windows), that I'll love programming it as much as I loved playing it when I first got it. If not, it'll go back up for sale.

You could build a new hardware Chroma, true.

But a modern Chroma as a piece of hardware is a big investment in terms of manufacturing. Tom Oberheim is going this route with the new SEM machines, and Dave Smith makes new boxes seemingly all the time now, so it's not unheard of -- but personally I am intrigued by your Chroma softsynth idea. I think that's a great idea.

Analog Circuit Modeling has gotten very good lately. The U-He Diva (which is its own beast, not an emulation of anything) is just plain incredible sounding. Arturia's SEM emulator is also pretty nice (they also do Arp2600, Prophet V and VS, CS80 and Jupiter 8, with varying degrees of success, but they're known for being careless with the original sounds). d16's 808, 909, and 303 emulators are so good I dumped my hardware (at outrageous prices). TAL's Bassline (SH101) and U-NO-LX (Juno 60) are also pretty much spot-on, leading me to also sell my SH-101 (not that a 101 is even close to rare, should I want it back, and d16 is also about to release a reimagining of the SH101 as software, with many extra features). My EDP Wasp may be next to go thanks to a free emulator that is also spot on (but the Wasp is kind of an easy emulation, there's really not much to it in the first place), and I'm currently studying the PPG Wave emulator to see if my Wave and Waveterm will go (in theory "it's just a bunch of wavetables" should make it a trivial call, but analog filters are not to be disposed of lightly).

Another trend I highly approve of is found mainly in the 8-bit chip emulation market so far: emulating bugs. In the 8-bit chip case it's stuff like the SID chip's oscillator leakage and other issues that make it sound interesting (and stem from the low quality control standards Commodore put in place for the C64 that had "within 20%" tolerances in some places).

For a software Chroma it could be drifting out of tune, or other hardware problems that conspire to make interesting rather than perfect sounds. (My hope is that Moog, other Arp, and SCI emulations will also get there soon, as well, rather than being exclusively perfect.)

What would I want in a Chroma emulation?

For you to fix all the problems you couldn't in the original design while keeping all the sound characteristics as exactly the same as possible.

That means, kinda like with the Arturia Prophet emulation, having fallbacks that allow you to limit yourself (in the Chroma's case to 8 voices, slow envelopes, fixed pitch detune, and limited waveshapes) while also adding exciting new features. (In the Prophet case, it's mixing the V and VS into a single polysynth, among other things.)

I'd love to have the Chroma sound, as closely as feasible, with all the modern conveniences -- and new features to be adds not replaces. For me new hardware has to be spectacular, as my studio is already cluttered. A VST is an easy sell.

So I say you should do it! (Not that you care what I say since I'm new here, but if you don't someone else may just go do it themselves, like so many of those other emulators I mention.)

Then, if it catches on, you can look into expanding it into a hardware project like John Bowen did with his Solaris synth (which is also available as software, but only on the way too expensive Sonic-Core DSP box -- please don't go that route).

Because the other nice thing about a VSTi is the low cost. You could get newer, younger Chroma users on board by letting them join the fun for less money (and hassle driving around to repair techs) than if they bought a used Chroma. They may fall in love, and give you a market for new hardware.

Plus, every new emulator gives all the old synth mailing lists at least several months of things to argue about :-)

Thanks,
- Stephan

Paul DeRocco [21030230]

Thanks for all that great feedback, Stephan.

I'm in the process now of having the circuit boards for the Digital Chroma laid out. These are basically panel boards--all the real work is done on a mini-ITX motherboard. So it's coming along well. Hopefully by the end of the year I'll have something to demonstrate, and I can publish a YouTube video, some good MP3 samples, and some documentation.

Then I'll probably turn to a VST plugin.

Nicholas Vining [21030777]

So! Here's a stupid idea, Paul. :)

Could we link a Digital Chroma to an Analog Chroma via the expander interface? *That* might be cool, and a nice way of expanding our existing units for those of us who don't have one of the increasingly-rare Expanders. A little digital and a little analog is always nice together...

Marais

Paul, are familiar at all with iOS btw? Wolfgang Palm just did a really well done, modern PPG style synth for the iPad, and Moog Animoog is pretty good too. Apple sells 100's times more ipads now than laptops and standalone's now. Just a thought.

Brian McCully [21030361]

Hi Stephan, Paul, et. al.

Great post, thanks. I own a whole lot of your mentioned softsynths as well. The U-He (both Diva and Zebra) and Arturia can sometimes be really processor intensive, requiring a dedicated computer (and peripherals) for the most part. Omnisphere and the U-He synths are my faves so far, as far as analog equivalence goes.

I get really tired of mousing around GUI's when editing, which sometimes almost feels equivalent to the one-slider Chroma editing. As an alternate to mousing, I'm really looking forward to a generation of no-latency touch tablets or screens, rather than the (Behringer, Mackie, etc.) generic knob box control surface, that has a limited relational layout to any given signal path algorithm, and the parameter settings.

In my dreams, for the Chroma (and some other old dinos), the iPad concept will become bi-directionally updated, and a full blown GUI editor/lib will work interactively (updating with the smaller editing tablet) and it will exist front and center with the Chroma. The main GUI editor will have all parameters displayed, possibly shown (updating per algorithm) in a more intuitive signal routing fashion, rather than fixed on screen as placeholders.

I created an editor in MAX for my JX-8P, and it was somewhat disappointing how many parameters (like cross-mod, for example) are not intuitively interactive, or operate in a different manner than what one expects - even after you read the user manual a million times. It's like reading and reciting a translation from English to French to Japanese and back again. In other words I'd like to use a more tactile and intuitive interface in general, and be less 'poly-modded' in mindset when trying to create sounds.

Jeffrey D. McEachin [21030073+]

At 01:41 PM 9/24/2012, Brian McCully wrote:

even after you read the user manual a million times. It's like reading and reciting a translation from English to French to Japanese and back again.

I take it you're not fluent in the Rolandese dialect of Engrish?

Paul DeRocco [21030230]

From: marais

Paul, are familiar at all with Ios btw ? Wolfgang Palm just did a really well done, modern PPG style synth for the Ipad, and Moog Animoog is pretty good too. Apple sells 100's times more ipads now than laptops and standalone's now. Just a thought. M

I'm not getting involved with Apple. I don't like their business model. I'm also not interested in doing soft synths for tablets, because they'll never be used for real instruments connected to real keyboards, and they'll always be underpowered compared to a good desktop or laptop. I'll probably do a VST plugin for the PC and/or Mac, because that would play well from a good keyboard controller, and would work in the context of a good DAW.

What I would like to use a tablet for is to host an editor for my Digital Chroma, which has many more parameters than the old Chroma. But again, I wouldn't support the iPad, but would stick to Android. Since a Chroma is thousands of dollars, and since an upgrade kit from me would be a bunch more on top of that, another couple hundred bucks for a dedicated Android tablet purely to run a much better user interface on wouldn't be too much to spend.

Paul DeRocco [21030230]

From: Brian McCully

Great post, thanks. I own a whole lot of your mentioned softsynths as well. The U-He (both Diva and Zebra) and Arturia can sometimes be really processor intensive, requiring a dedicated computer (and peripherals) for the most part. Omnisphere and the U-He synths are my faves so far, as far as analog equivalence goes.

I've got Omnisphere and Zebra 2 on my PC. The former has an ENORMOUS sample library, but I never use it because it's all sound effects and eerie pads and washes that make good incidental sounds in movie soundtracks, but aren't very musical. I just want to play music--songs--melody, chords and bass--jazz improv. In all those sounds, I only found two or three that feel like an actual musical instrument.

Zebra 2 is nicer, although I don't like most of the patches that come with it. But its architecture is capable of making some really good analog-like synth sounds. I haven't delved into making my own sounds--I look forward to trying, but I'm kind of busy at the moment. I also tried the demo of Diva, but only briefly.

What I'm working on is highly optimized for the Chroma architecture. It's capable of doing at least 64 voices on a fanless CPU. Zebra is more versatile, but it takes way more processor horsepower.

In my dreams, for the Chroma (and some other old dinos), the iPad concept will become bi-directionally updated, and a full blown GUI editor/lib will work interactively (updating with the smaller editing tablet) and it will exist front and center with the Chroma. The main GUI editor will have all parameters displayed, possibly shown (updating per algorithm) in a more intuitive signal routing fashion, rather than fixed on screen as placeholders.

So far, the editor I've done for my project is a Windows/Mac GUI with all the parameters in fixed locations. It's easier than using the Chroma panel, but it also co-exists with it, showing any changes made via the Chroma panel. I have a lot of ideas for better interfaces that could be implemented on a tablet, but I have to get the instrument done first.

Brian McCully [21030361]

I think U-he and Spectrasonics are the most organic. The filters in both products are the most 'smacky' and versatile. But both require a lot of computer, as in optimized with RAM, solid state drives, CPU, etc.

Maybe I should have stated 'Spectrasonics product(s)' rather than Omnisphere, as when you add the Moog library in, and the integration of Trilian (their updated bass module) all in the same interface, you get a rounder set of more musical sounds, rather than just for film and ambience. (watch the Lyle Mays demo...) I find the analog leads and basses fat (and editable), and additionally the effects modules could be sold on their own merit. It's a company that tries to produce something different, and the quality is quite good, but pricey. Trying to work through -all- of the Omnisphere library sounds towards a quick musical set-up can be quite tedious.

Really looking forward to what you come up with, Paul. Regardless of platform! ;>)

Andrew Howson [21030209]

I've avoided answering this question because I know how my response would sound... but I don't think anyone else has said this so I will: one of the things I like about the Chroma is that not a whole bunch of people have them. Yes, that it's an instrument that can be really "played", and that has a great deal of modulation options, are certainly factors... but part of its appeal is its somewhat unique features and sound compiled in to a relatively uncommon instrument. Does this make me an elitist? No, I don't think so. From a competitive point-of-view I guess you could say it gives me a bit of an "edge". I imagine if a competent software emulation were to be released I'd be thinking about unique modifications that could give my Chroma a personal, or relatively unique character -- like getting different sorts of filters in there (diodes!) that still pass the start-up testing routines, if that's even possible.

Doug Wellington [21030300]

I'm not getting involved with Apple. I don't like their business model.

I agree. As of the Samsung judgement a month ago, I have ceased all OS X and iOS development and will only do Android development in the future. I also made the mistake of allowing iOS 6 to be installed on my iPad and now I don't have Google Maps any more. Dang. For a brief moment, it looked like Youtube wasn't available either, but it seems to work in the web browser now.

I think it would be great to have an Android tablet interface to the Chroma...

Paul DeRocco [21030230]

From: Doug Wellington

I think it would be great to have an Android tablet interface to the Chroma...

So what kind of interfacing options do Android tablets have? The Digital Chroma can integrate completely with an editor over any bidirectional MIDI interface. It has two USB host ports. Can an Android be configured as a USB MIDI device? It also has one USB device port. Can an Android function as a USB host and recognize an attached MIDI device?

Stephan Vladimir Bugaj [21030860]

I think it would be great to have an Android tablet interface to the Chroma...

The original pro iPad argument was sales volume. This is a red herring that pro app developers seem to keep falling for.

Sales volume is irrelevant to iOS as a platform choice for pro apps, because most people view the devices as consumer products. They want a thing that lets them chat with their friends, play games, find fun places to hang out, and take pictures.

You need to figure out where your buyers want to work, not where everyone else is going.

iPads and Androids are good for some things, and not others. What those are stem from both techincal issues, and knowing your user base.

Stephan Vladimir Bugaj [21030860]

My personal take is that from a competitive point of view putting in the time and effort to get your own interesting sounds out of any synth (or using the presets in interesting combos w/ interesting fx chains, if that's your thing) is more valuable than what particular synths you own. I own many synths because I love the variety and find that understanding each synth's design and learning its positives and negatives is intellectually and artistically stimulating. But lots of other people do fantastic work using just the one most common synth of the day (DX7, Massive, whatever), and still manage to set themselves apart through the results of their dedication and effort.

Andrew Howson [21030209]

I'm not disputing the importance of good sound design. I was *only* providing an answer to the question about what (some) people like about the Chroma that hasn't been discussed yet -- and to be clear I'm not in disagreement with the other answers that have been provided, and I'm not discounting the importance of good sound design, or song structure and music theory for that matter. Good sound design, song structure and music theory weren't really topics within the scope of the question however, and while I might argue that together they are perhaps fundamental in creating quality music, people's interests are piqued by novelty and unfamiliarity, and in terms of the sound palette specifically the Chroma has those qualities in spades *because* there's nothing quite like it and it isn't readily available.

Go to next message in thread, October 2012